KEEGAN: Here we are the ATG sprinter.
I appreciate you making some time for us there today.
How did you get into sprinting?
I heard you were pretty slow at one stage.
BRENDAN: Slowest guy to ever touch a track.
Thank you Keegan for having me here. This is literally a testament that life is crazy and your dreams can come true.
I’m on a call right now with a guy that I literally would watch hours and hours and hours of content and educate myself.
Super surreal. Just had to put that out there for me.
But so the track journey was really kind of being pulled into something that I really shouldn't have been doing.
I was with all my friends and they were all athletes in middle school and in secondary school and just as a byproduct of your environment, I thought I was also athletic.
So I would run with my friends at track practice, and track meets but I was not naturally athletic so I was the slowest person to ever touch the track.
It was super humbling and embarrassing for years and there are tons of stories I can explain of how incredibly slow I was.
So that's my background and now I have massive goals for that.
KEEGAN: Did you want to run hundreds or what did you run, everything?
BRENDAN: Yeah I tried everything I could to not get last place.
I tried everything from the mile to 100 and no matter what I did, I was only sitting in the back of jerseys, I never finished before anyone for literally three years and so yeah, I tried it all.
But in school especially early on, the way they pick your ideal distance if you're a sprinter or a distance runner is pretty much “hey are you naturally fast at the age of 13, 14? if you are, okay you're meant to be a sprinter, that's your body type”, “oh you're not naturally athletic well you must be a distance runner”, where that just made me a really bad distance runner. I was no matter what gonna be slow.
So yeah, I ended up being a distance runner for four or five years and I was competing in the 800 and mile and sometimes longer than that, and I hated it but I did improve a little bit.
I can go into depth about all of that.
There are a lot of funny stories about it. There's a lot of insight that hides.
Now on this side of it, I wish I knew when I was younger.
KEEGAN: Why did you keep doing it if you were behind? How did you go about it?
BRENDAN: Well that was that's the fascinating thing, I had in the first two years many times where at age 13 public humiliation is such a rough thing to go through, and every single week I went through that at track meets because it wasn't just “oh you did your best nice job” it was all the friends are in the stands and family and the race starts and everyone's like “oh God whose kid is that?” and I’m just trotting along heaving in a uniform that's falling off of me, looking ridiculous.
So every single week I wanted to quit but I was so lucky in the first couple of years I had the best coaches and the best teammates in the community and my teammates would be screaming on the sidelines even though I’m in last place just for the sake of work ethic, try to beat your PRs, screaming at me like I’m winning the race and it was the social pressure to not quit on those people that kept me in it long enough to where I felt just one percent improvement and then I was hooked.
As soon as I ever didn't get last place then I was now independent with my belief and persistence but for a long time when I was a teenager I was worried about other people.
So it was a lot of good pressure that kept me in it.
KEEGAN: So it was like 15 or 16 that you started to sort of see the light a bit of “I could beat somebody and I can get better at this”?
BRENDAN: yeah yeah so I started 13, 14, and three years straight it was a mess and around that time three to four years in I saw granular improvements and so when I started training with the team this is just a funny story when I was 14 they would break up all the runners into groups and tell them to go do their own separate workouts based on how fast you were, they would say “boys group one, you're gonna go run four miles here at this pace”, “boys group two, you're gonna go do this” and then they would say “girls group one here” and then “the slowest group of girls, group 2 and Brendan, you guys are going to go do this loop over there” and I’ll be running with the slowest girls on the team and I could not keep up with them and I was busting my butt trying to race all the girls that didn't that were forced to run track by their parents and I’m like… so that's where I started and then after two years I started being pretty competitive for high school.
KEEGAN: Yeah I was the slow kid as well through high school because I was kind of a late bloomer but I was alright across the country because I would just put all heart in and actually ran pretty high level for distant stuff but I felt the pain on the sprints and I wanted to play field hockey which I know in the States is a girl sport but in Australia and we usually top three at the Olympics and that was kind of the dream for me.
But they wanted people to be fast so I was okay but I wanted speed as well.
My dad actually went down and said “look…” because the idea that speed was genetic was very very strong at that stage I was 15 years old, 25 years ago.
My dad said to me “look…” and my dad was a professional rugby coach working with professional trainers, he said “look you're not you're never going to be fast but at least you can have good endurance and you could be able to kind of repeat efforts”, that was what he told me…
I was 15 when I wanted to go to the Olympics and they were telling me I’m not making the teams because I’m too slow and I was like… that was tough but then I found strength training.
When did strength training come into the picture for you?
BRENDAN: Yeah well I had similar talks from many family as well but my dad wasn't a legendary strength coach so that must have been…
KEEGAN: Not a strength coach but he's a rugby coach, the tactical side of rugby and that stuff, was actually managing the teams.
BRENDAN: So he was the most credible source, the worst person to hear from.
So really I was a late bloomer as well. I went into high school and wasn't 100 pounds yet.
I was 90 pounds and 5’1 and so I always dabbled in trying to start lifting and build muscle but I had very little access and guidance that by the time I really started taking strength training serious was just out of necessity because I was so injured and fragile that I was just trying to find a way to get out of pain.
The first chronic injury was a knee injury that was just tendonitis and in 2000, I was 13 when it started and it went on until I was 19 and I had surgery for it.
So in 2013 there really wasn't great information readily available on that, there were the reverse step-ups and some variations but it wasn't methodical and I wasn't sure why…
So strange training came from that, it came from me trying to rehab myself and I was a very serious athlete and that I meant serious, I meant well and I had great aspirations but I was a terrible athlete.
So it just had to happen. I was really weak. I didn't see much progress in the first year or two but it just kind of came as a byproduct of trying not to be the worst anymore.
KEEGAN: Did you put it together, that was actually helping your speed, did you feel it was making a difference or did it?
BRENDAN: Yeah I always was a keen observer and I would listen to the advice of anybody that was ahead of me and so the generic guidance I was getting from the strength coach in my high school and track coach was just “get your squat bigger and try to build strength with a trap bar, deadlift, and stuff.
So anytime someone would give me a little nugget of advice whether it was good advice or not I would sort of obsessively work at it and almost take it to the extreme and so yeah I got really strong at… well not at all, actually I got stronger at things that I thought were gonna help me and it really didn't but I did notice some parts of athleticism built and so I had the sense of working hard towards your training does help, it does count for something.
I just thought I had bad knees so that was my unfortunate you know birthright, so just bad news clearly.
Now we know that's not the truth but…
KEEGAN: Yeah so when did you kind of come across the athletic truth group?
BRENDAN: Well I was working on my own athletic truth throughout the years of trying to scramble and put pieces together and what helped my knee and what didn't and by the time I came across Ben's content in 2019 or late 2018 whenever he started, it was such a familiar thing for me of traditional protocols really don't serve the person as well as we think and people are struggling in pain because I was that person.
So I came across Ben Patrick on just a reverse step up and that was something I became obsessive about already.
I was “oh my god this guy's doing something that I totally believe in and understand” and then it's the rabbit hole of ATG, you start going into all these movements and learning long-range, short-range, and just the concepts of training start to change.
That was in 2019 and that's when I’ve completely transformed my trajectory and health and potential for athleticism because by the age of 22 I already racked up a ton of serious injuries from the tendonitis I had surgery for, I had stress fractures on and off for two or three years in my tibias, I had a sports hernia, herniated disc and I wasn't an ego lifter.
I was just a hard worker in a very average high school and college strength program.
I just did the right thing how I was told to do with 100% effort and I was broken down from it.
So yep, ATG definitely changed my life and it's only been a couple of years and I wish I had it when I was 16 but I know there are plenty of 30-year-olds that look at me and I wish I had it when I was 24, so I don't get too hung up on that.
KEEGAN: Yeah I guess, I was 36 so it came pretty late, long after my Olympic dream had passed.
What did they do for the knee, and the patellar tendon?
Do you have bone removed off the bottom of the kneecap or what did they do?
BRENDAN: Fortunately not, kind of funny if I knew, anything more than I do now I would have not gone through with the surgery but all they really did, I had partial tears running parallel with the tendon and it was obviously super dysfunctional.
They just cut my tendon in half and then sutured it back up and the idea of it is just to damage the tendon, to bring blood flow and circulation and that's gonna promote healing.
Now I mean a week of the sled, get blood flow that way, some short-range work, or get your tendon cut in half with permanent stitches, yeah I didn't really know better and I was eager to get back so it was surgery that definitely didn't need to happen and it didn't work.
I rehabbed from the initial surgery and then was left with the same tendonitis, I couldn't squat, I couldn't jump, or sprint and so I definitely wanted my money back for sure.
KEEGAN: I think it's not stunning to my understanding that surgery is generally a good pathfinder.
I haven't heard of anyone having a really good outcome with the surgery on that specific injury but yeah we do have lots of people now who say they've had something for a number of years and then often it's like a weekend or a month in that someone's “yeah I can do what I couldn't do before.”
It can take longer to deal with different components of it but yeah there are some pretty fast transformations as you say the sled, the short range, and some light stretching can do a lot for a lot of people in a short period of time.
BRENDAN: Yeah and it's a whole nother level of paradigm shifts and breaking out of the strength culture especially when this is your field or passion.
It's easy to become very dogmatic about what works and what doesn't and what's sophisticated training and what is dangerous and what we're finding is a lot of the stuff that at first glance seems unorthodox or dangerous is what's getting people crazy results and when you start to be open-minded you realize it's not unorthodox at all, it just is treating the body with biology on its side with things you can actually account for and I don't know, I just know for myself I went to college decided to study exercise science just to fix my knee.
The only reason I went to college was to leave my hometown and I chose the major just to fix me.
That was worth the college loans in my eyes at the time and then I went through academia and I bought into it and I was able to do some research with professors and I thought I was learning so much yet I was still injured.
I became more ego-driven in my head because I felt like I knew more now and I was still lacking results in my athleticism and my happiness in my body.
So to break out of that is a tough thing and that's why it's so admirable when we find we have tons in our community, physical therapists who are 15 years into practice and they're able to go “you know what ATG is game-changing” and they start adopting and using with their patients.
It's like they're deciding to give up on 10 years of reinforced belief and be “well I was wrong for this long but what works works. I'd rather make the change now.” and that's a very tough thing to do for sure.
KEEGAN: It's not always that black and white of right and wrong for a therapist.
They might have been having an inkling of “we still need to move in this direction” and then they find more clarity and more certainty, different progressions and things that… they may have seen all the movements and a lot of experience coaches would say that “yeah I’ve seen all of that like there's nothing new there” but then if you actually dive into it it's a different way of thinking about things that get very different results.
It's not… actually the fact of the movements, it's the way the movements are put together and the regressions and the sequencing of things that is definitely new.
I was researching this stuff for 20 years.
I had tendonitis from 15 years. I had overuse injuries from I think nine or ten, my first thing I had the heel one but the sever's thing but those who do manage to dive a little bit deeper into it and then put it to use tend to not look back and tend to be heavily impacted by it especially if there are those injuries in the background.
I guess the performance is more of the focus. You've been training alongside Ben down there, you wanna be faster, how do you see it from that performance angle now of just caring about speed?
BRENDAN: Yeah well my idea of what's possible for me just completely shot out of the water as soon as I could train week in and week out and not be in pain.
The biggest performance-enhancing strategy is to just stay healthy so you can put in 52 weeks of training in a year.
If you can do that year after year, you're gonna realize how much was left on the table before.
So training with Ben, Ben Patrick is not the worst workout partner, he's definitely living what he talks about and he pushes really hard on the things that we talk about all the time.
So for me to be in a point where working on performance, it's crazy.
So now basically I’m trying to take what got me out of pain and then use it as true strength training right now and so my weak points in my past have been my lower legs, connective tissue, tendons, a lot with my knee, and very typical joint dysfunctions for athletes and especially in running and so I’m not changing really anything about my approach except I can really funnel in more intensity more volume to where it matters and so for sprinting that's going to be a lot of triple flexions, a lot of really high-quality hamstring work and Nordics methodically over time.
We're obsessing right now over hip flexors and we're taking it to the extremes a bit and I’m doing reverse squats and monkey foot hip flexor raises four to five times a week kind of taking your squat everyday approach and that's just to sort of balance out the 10 years of squatting I’ve already done, cleans and deadlifts and trying to make up for some time with the opposite of that.
KEEGAN: How's your body responding to them because it can give you a weird feeling of…the fatigue in those muscles and heaviness in the size and lower abs region it's a strange kind of tension to deal with when it feels a bit locked up, right?
BRENDAN: Yeah I was nervous about it in the first week or two because I was completely new to that style of loading with real weight.
I was doing a lot of l-sits and more calisthenics-based decompression and that's really something the cramping you get but it's not the same as loading hardcore over time but surprisingly the recovery on it is great.
I think it's just so muscular and it's the metabolic aspect of it allows you to recover.
There are not tons of tendon demands in that area.
It is a little worrying that there's a lot of connective tissue and the lower ab wall is something I’ve had issues with.
I had a sports hernia but it honestly feels great.
The only concern is that I have to balance it out with enough long-range work and stretching because I do get tight like a couch stretch gets very difficult for me if I don't do anything throughout the week for mobility-wise but yeah it's been going fine so far.
KEEGAN: Very cool and are you doing much sprinting at the moment?
BRENDAN: Yeah about once a week and the reason why is I’m trying to go out with a very long-term approach and what me and Ben have been really working on lately and trying to get our minds right on is what is the best long-term strategy to developing a sprinter because right now if I started sprinting two to three times a week and I was pushing to maybe run a fast time in three months, I could probably do really decent for myself but I still have a long ways to go before I could be world-class and so I’m gonna need a different body with completely different qualities of properties.
So just for the sake of my training right now, I’m putting more emphasis on building the hardware, not the software, building the framework and my tendons, ligaments, and everything that would break down through sprinting.
I’m trying to just completely double down for probably the next year.
I’ll continue sprinting. 52 sprint sessions in a year is pretty good if you stick with once a week.
Around track time I might need more specific work in the whole technical side of blocks and your drive phase and all that stuff but sprinting is sort of jumping and that you want to get good at it you might think that you just have to do it more than anyone else but just look at the guys that are beating you in a race, they probably have some key distinctions you could pay attention to and it's probably easy to spot on their physique or their strengths in certain areas or their resiliency and ability to just never get injured.
That's where you should work to develop the changes.
I’m not just squeezing out any bit of speed gains over the next 12 weeks.
KEEGAN: Yeah that makes sense.
So what event have you going to focus on? Is it to run the indoor 60 or is the 100 or is it the 200, or 400?
BRENDAN: Yeah so I’m focusing on the 400 for sure.
I think the longer the distance the better shot I have just based on the 10 years of aerobic work.
My weakness is speed and so as an ATG sprinter that's kind of the oxymoron and I’m trying to work on that but I’m gonna run everything just because I love it and it's cool and I like tracking progress but probably gonna focus on long sprints 200, 400.
It'll be fun to see for sure.
KEEGAN: And what's your best time so far, if you don’t mind sharing?
BRENDAN: So the last meet I ran that's official times was even before ATG and it's not good, at 400 I ran a 52.8, and at 200 I think I ran a 23.7, I ran an 800 in that meet too, is a 205.
So a pretty average d2 runner and that was two years ago.
I looked different. I felt different. My body was not the same as it is now.
So I’m a little anxious to go run a meet right now to see but I’m expecting to be…
KEEGAN: It's extremely athlethic but it's as you say in the US track… it's competitive if you want to be a div one college athlete in those events.
It pretty much means you are right on the edge of world-class where… because US Olympians are usually so far ahead.
The top college athletes would probably qualify for the Olympics from most other countries, especially the smaller countries.
So you got that standard in the States that's super high.
What's your best 100?
BRENDAN: I only ran one in my life and I think it was an 11-7.
I don't even think I know how to use blocks then.
I would be really upset if I couldn't break 11 soon if I ran a meet and wouldn't be close to low 11 or break it.
It's easy to say that you gotta walk the walk but that's yeah.
KEEGAN: What would you see if you compared what you're doing in the weight room then to what you're doing now, where would you say the biggest changes would be?
BRENDAN: It's a lot. Some of the movements are the same, I used to squat a lot back then but I would do German volume training with such low-quality reps.
I would do… with 100 kilos I would try to get through 10 by 10 workouts and it was just a different squat compared to now and so I was just putting garbage volume on and trying to just… I had the training background too as an athlete.
Being a coach-athlete is an interesting kind of duality.
So I was trying to use what I thought I knew then and then as an athlete, I was also obsessive, just work ethic, I was trying to use and I took everything to the extreme.
I didn't have a good methodical approach.
When I learned Nordics I started doing them three times a week and I would do ten sets of ten, I would try, like I literally, well maybe not three times a week for that but there were workouts where I did 10 sets of 10 eccentric Nordics and then tried to spread the next day because I just didn't understand properties of tendons and how that works.
KEEGAN: How did that go?
BRENDAN: Well I survived. It definitely is a blessing that I did tear something immediately but I eventually did run into… this was a tough period when learning ATG, I went at it with the same intensity and focus of my bad training and I did injure myself on numerous occasions chasing a pancake, injured myself on a Nordic behind the knee many times just from pushing way beyond what would have been quality form and intent and so I’ve been through that.
Many people go through that when they start.
KEEGAN: Yeah it's tough when the instructions are clear, the guidelines are clear if you're extending your videos into a coach, the feedback is going to be clear but if you're young and you think you're bulletproof or if you're middle age like myself, I think you're bulletproof that you just want to put everything into it and hope it works.
Yeah particularly the pancake, if you try to hurry that it doesn't end well.
Often for the Nordic as well, if you try to hurry that, it doesn't end well.
So I think a lot of the fine-tuning that we've done with the ATG system over the years has been really powerful to help to avoid some of those challenges but it's cool to hear how you are seeing the difference.
The mobility side, were you flexible as a sprinter already, were you diligent with that?
BRENDAN: Yeah, so I had some decent flexibility in specific places just because I said if there was any coach that said “do this”, I would take it to the extreme, and pretty much all it was was toe touch variations and grab your foot and yank your quad kind of thing and I had I think standing pike palms to ground out of high school but I probably couldn't do a couch stretch.
I don't think I ever stretched my piriformis and actually got into lateral hip mobility.
The more I learned of strength training and just in my own progression as a coach, I got more fancy and so hip cars and pails and rails and all the joint manipulation, which has value but I never did strength through length, I never actually trained to be strong in those ranges.
So that is probably one of the top three advantages I have now that I didn't then.
Changes the way you approach everything with training and changes the misconceptions of flexibility or “that's for me, that's not, I’m too big to get flexible and I’m…” you know all that stuff.
What about you? Were you always pretty flexible? Do you have the mobility you have now because your elbows to toes on your pike, so you're my kind of inspiration with that?
KEEGAN: Yeah I’ve been getting that back.
I’ve been doing some handstand work again.
So I need that. That's what you really need, a big, a really deep pike for handstand, advanced sort of hand balancing work.
That's pushed me to go bother with it. I kind of got into Ido Portal and that kind of stuff.
2013, 14 so yeah that's sort of always had its place since then but I was, I think like you, I was usually pretty good on the forward bend but then people kept saying like “if you get too flexible it makes you slower as well”, so I think I really stopped stretching and kind of took some pride in becoming tighter through my late teens and twenties because that seemed to be the dominant idea at the time and I got told that by physiotherapists and speed coaches and things like that.
So I definitely had to fight hard to be able to snatch and to be able to fully overhead squat and people message me at the moment because I’m doing these squats, they're like “did you always have that squat mobility?”, I was like “No. I was just like everybody else squatting halfway down and getting shitty knees doing that” and I had to work hard to get the deep squat.
I would say my body probably responds to it pretty well.
I think there are different collagen types and different neural types that I seem to be able to teach myself to get into positions fairly quickly whether it's the type of collagen or whether it's something with the nervous system, I don't know but most people actually progress a lot faster than they think they can once they start doing the right things and kind of learn what it really is to use the range of strength or strength through length concept.
It's very powerful once you just treat it like strength training and conservatively add load with time, and get strong in the positions.
It's very very powerful.
BRENDAN: Especially with the more background you have lifting, I mean I’ve had friends and clients that were strong guys and they were really big and they didn't have any progress in their mobility until they started loading serious.
They could do all the other walks they want but these were guys deadlifting 500 pounds.
It wasn't until they did Jefferson curls with at least 100 pounds…
It's really funny that you brought up the elasticity concept of stiff and tight joints.
The amount of ankle mobility I avoided because I wanted my ankles to be as stiff as possible because passive tendon stiffness, I thought, was the way and it all made sense to me. I was reading through the papers. I was listening to the guys on the Youtube channels and I’m like “yeah I wanted a rubber band” and it's so funny now that everything's improved, even my elasticity, even my bounciness but now I can squat to depth, now I can not have Achilles pain when I sprint, and there's definitely some components like you said neurologically or collagen types that might make it faster or slower for somebody but there's no advantage of being…
KEEGAN: Everybody's gonna get there with load.
If you put 400 kilograms on someone's back and go into the deep squat then you're going to be in a very deep squat.
At some load everybody goes into the position whether the tissues break or not, it is a different conversation but if… 400 kilos, it pushes you into the position then it's just simply a question of “okay well how much do I need to regress that so I don't break and that's what you do, you just keep going into the position with a load that doesn't break you and you go significantly less that you think is going to break you.
I did a 110-kilogram squat for 20 seconds in the bottom yesterday and it's like a structural integrity thing, being able to sit there and talk and feel comfortable and then stand back up but your body is going to become more accustomed to that if you do it.
And the elephant walk, as you say, it's a great movement for people who don't train or they've had a lot of back pain or they just don't have a strength training background but for those with a strength training background, then the Jefferson curl or even just single leg kind of Jefferson curl versions, variations where you stay in the bottom, there's a bunch of different types or ways that you can go about it, the slant board variations and if you want more of a special thing but anyone who says they can't touch their toes, give me a month.
Often it's even one session even one or two sessions as I say with enough load you'll get there today or in a day or two.
Will you get pretty sore? Will you maybe flare something up that it bothers you for the next two months? Maybe, then you need to learn about short range and you need to learn how to settle the tendons down really quickly but yeah nobody can't do it it's just a question of time and load.
BRENDAN: Yeah and what I think is fascinating is I don't think we should try to utilize restriction as an advantage when there's definitely a better way and take, I get sometimes messages from powerlifters that will ask about “Should I try to get a really stiff thoracic spine?”.
I think that is best to just maintain stiffness and bracing to have as little mobility in that area as possible and it's “well what do you think would be the best advantage to be a stiff board that's ready to snap or to be like bamboo that is strong, pliable but you built up internal structural strength?”
You're gonna have better results long term for your actual sport and just life.
I was the same way, that's the same ideology that stiff ankles let you be on springs.
There are better options for sure, that's not how the human body works.
I don't think it wants to be stiff and in pain but…
KEEGAN: For the specificity of powerlifting, it is possible that you put yourself in that cast and you live in that cast for the rest of your life or for 30 40 years and you just brace and you maintain neutral spine.
It is possible and I know athletes, powerlifters who are super strong and that's what they do and they don't have bad backs, they don't have injured backs.
They are extremely dysfunctional as far as a normal human goes.
They can't tie their shoelaces like a normal human but they're you know world-class in their sport or at least a national level but also see in weightlifting, those guys are squatting similar weights, comparable weights or all the way down and they can pause in the bottom and they can do pancake.
So there's not one way of doing that.
If you're a powerlifter, you can make the decision of “I’m just going to brace for the rest of my life” but for athletes, for anyone who needs to get into different positions, it's not an option.
It's a short-term option… I think that's where a lot of the research comes from, pain and chronic injury but at some point, you want to be able to live and use the body in the way that a baby can use it, in a the way that a child can use it.
That's always my litmus, if a five-year-old can do it then it's right.
If a five-year-old can jump off something that's twice their height and not even think twice about it, not need to warm up that's what the human body is meant to be able to do.
They can pick up something that's twice their body weight without thinking about it, with a round back and they don't think twice then that's what the body's meant to be able to do and we just lose those abilities because we train like we train or we don't move, we don't lift in the way that we would have if we been on the planet five thousand years ago, we wouldn't have had an option, we would have been chopping trees and dragging things and carrying beasts and whatever we were doing.
BRENDAN: Ben actually put out a really cool podcast episode about exactly what you said.
He was looking at Onyx, his son and he said that seeing him just maneuver in these positions and roll and be on his knees and then it's in all these awkward places.
He's unable to hurt himself, he has the mobility and just non-restriction that he literally can't hurt himself, however, the outside world can hurt him because he doesn't have the underlying strength and protection.
So Ben was saying he's trying to be more like Onyx with his mobility and with his
overall capacity, pound-for-pound strength, and everything you said while actually building up for protection and basketball and life and whatever we need.
So you can mesh what we were born with and not mess that up and then build top of that to protect the outside world and you can't internally hurt yourself, that's pretty good.
There are a lot of guys that want 400 pounds and they do that without hurting themselves but if they were to maybe bend down the wrong way, they twinged their back and I’ve been there.
And also I just want to clarify about the powerlifting comment, I know I’m not qualified to talk about powerlifting.
I don't want to offend anybody. I’m totally out of scope. I am not strong but I’m here for you guys, I’m here for the powerlifters.
I’m just saying I think there's an even better way but I also may not know what the heck I’m talking about with that.
KEEGAN: Maybe you and I don't fit in that category but there's Dawson Windham.
I don't know if you've had contact with him.
He's pushing for some world records in powerlifting like he's right up around those marks and he's super fast and powerful but he's said that since he's been using ATG and he can do dislocates with the bar and he can do all sorts of stuff, he's extremely muscular and it's been very helpful for him in coming back.
It was first from a knee surgery but now he uses as a whole body system and he sort of said it feels like “I’m already warmed up when I go into the gym” compared to what he used to feel like.
I look forward to doing a podcast with him at some stage as well but he's a good one to check out for sure if someone's listening to this and they're thinking these two guys aren't that credible when it comes to powerlifting, Dawson is a really credible source for that.
I know there are a bunch of others. Ben's done some stuff with Steffi Khan. She can do sissy squats.
He's also worked with another guy who scored a thousand pounds after improving his knees working with Ben.
So there are a number of stories that I know of and there's probably a lot more that I don't know of and I’ve told Ben and haven't taught me as well but anyways enough about the powerlifting.
You've recently exploded your social media, so you've kind of taken that on.
Was that part of the training sessions there where he's like “hey you should get some viral videos going as well” or how did that… where did that start?
BRENDAN: Zero not at all and what's actually funny is that I developed a relationship with Ben, and we became friends.
I’m working with ATG. I’m here for almost six weeks in the gym filming these videos.
When I started, my account was at maybe 600 followers on this account I now have and now it's at 16,000.
And for the first six weeks, Ben didn't even follow me.
He never saw my page before in his life, he had no clues I doing that and that was zero part about kind of what we were working on, he just wanted to help me get as fast as possible.
So for me, I’ve always taken the idea of don't ask for permission to go and grow.
Take initiative, you see an opportunity, just put in the work, and then the people will recognize it if you're doing quality stuff and so that was completely me, I went out of my way a lot.
I love content. I’ve spent years failing at making good content and so now I’ve refined it to where I think I know how to deliver a message and kind of use our social context like trends and how to get attention and break pattern disruption, all this stuff and now I can handle it without getting anxious.
I used to not like content because I would make something I thought was amazing and then I would get really freaking disappointed if it didn't do well and so yeah this is the tip of the iceberg, this has been years in the making and I just started to actually have any kind of traction.
So it's been cool, I think it happened right on time.
If I was blowing up a year ago, I don't think I would have had a great message to share.
I would have just been a big guy with a big platform with very little to say.
So yeah that was purely me and it's hard to be around it and not try to emulate.
It's hard to be friends with you, with Ben, with all the staff here, and just the growing community, I mean even the ATG for coaches, I’ve met so many in the past month at the expo and it's just too inspiring for me to not try to share and so yeah I mean just trying to do my best with that.
I’ve been a student of your work big time.
I love your content. It's literally saved me.
I’ve probably watched more hours of your stuff than anyone else in ATG because you have so much on Youtube.
The amount of times I refer people to your Youtube channel on a daily basis in the DMs because I think I honestly believe that the videos you've done on the ATG principles, long range versus short range, the most important principle we're missing and all those videos is the perfect bridge from maybe someone coming out of academia or they have a good base knowledge of training but they're totally foreign to ATG.
It's delivered perfectly so I think content is this day and age of encyclopedias and information.
So yeah I tend to start going on rants.
So you got to cut me off sometimes Keegan, I’m realizing I’m just talking so much.
KEEGAN: I appreciate the positivity around the Youtube stuff and yes I think people underestimate… like it's a challenge for me as well to hit the record button and to actually say “yeah I’m going to go on record with this”.
With the Youtube stuff, it doesn't sound very humble but I think it's the best strength training information that's on the internet honestly.
I’ve watched everyone's stuff.
I watch everything out there from every old school thing to every new school thing, athletes, Ph.D. guys and it's like I wish someone just told me these principles like 20 years ago so in some ways I think they shouldn't be on Youtube because it's almost people will easily gloss over but then I do get a lot of messages from people who aren't part of ATG for Coaches and I even aren't doing ATG Online and they're like “yeah this changed the way I think about strength training and I’m programming differently since I understood this”.
There are some guys now who want to do research.
There's someone who's doing research under Brad Schoenfeld, who's kind of the main muscle researcher.
There's one of the coaches in the community now is trying to get a study done through them.
I’m almost skeptical or I’m a little bit against the academic world because I was sort of in it and studying it and it didn't do me well but ultimately it's great if that world also understands what is actually happening here and I’m sure they can explain it much better than I can and they can go in and do what they do.
They know they do what they do well.
There are other concepts here that haven't been… they've been underexplored and I don't you know it's hard to sort of understand why after so long but it's fun to think.
I’m really sure they're going to be a number of researchers and people way more interested in academics than us who are going to also love doing the training and they're going to get the results themselves and they're going to “yeah this needs to get into the research into the papers”.
How has that impacted your confidence and how you're looking at the future because it's such a big thing now, people think they want to grow their socials like you've just done it.
How has it honestly impacted your outlook for the future and your kind of self-image?
BRENDAN: It's a kind of chicken or egg situation for me because I’m in such a different place of life overall now that it makes content easier, it makes it easier to publish content and share my journey because I’m also at the point where I’m finally living my ideal.
I’m in a lifestyle and in a flow of things that I’ve always been trying to develop and it took years to get community ecosystem, get the body I need, I mean that's what you're all about, I know this is the ATG podcast but the stuff that you do with Uncommon Success and of being healthy in the mind and body and developing skill sets and then financial literacy.
Your ideal and all these things will literally change the way you feel each and every day and then once you feel great, each and every day your confidence is there and you're extremely passionate about getting something out there to the world.
It's honestly easy for me to record now because I feel so grateful that I’m in this head space and in this reality and I just want to share and share and share.
I just want to help whoever is in the same spot I was in a year ago or two years ago because that's what just brought me to where I’m at here.
Every time I make content, I literally try to think about Brendan two or three years ago.
What got me out of that and it was seeing your content.
Go seeing Ben's content. I know what it's like to really be stuck in hurting and the only thing that ever got me out of it were people bold enough to go against the grain and put their ideas out for the world to judge and that was you, Ben, a lot of people in ATG, other mentors and to be in a position maybe I could do that for someone.
I got over the nerves and the pressure and the self-doubt of it because for me, I’m just happy with my life and grateful and I want other people to have that.
So that's where I’m at with this.
Definitely changed my life for a number of reasons and what's also helped is I’m learning one of the things Ben has taught me about content, I would recommend everyone to think about this for whatever they're trying to deliver, is he makes it very simple… whenever he tries to put a video out, he's trying to educate and lead by example and that's his entire approach and so if he makes it fun or interesting, that's cool.
Sprinkle it on there but the reason why he's making content is to try to educate someone on topic that he knows there's a gap in and then show with social proof of himself or other people “no this really can be for you” and so that's one of the biggest things is just like you start to feel you have to put out content.
If you're trying to grow especially in fitness now, you're going to be told content is king, I have to get on these platforms and you can kind of get pulled into “okay well what's working on the platforms”.
I guess I gotta dance on tick tock now or I guess I gotta start you know using all these trending sounds and it's like, you might do okay from that route but to really be groundbreaking, it's probably closer to your true message, and your true beliefs.
So getting really clear on that and then learning how to put that into a video is secondary.
But yeah long answers always for me, I’m sorry.
I just start going and going…
KEEGAN: Well that's what people want to hear and they want to understand what's going on inside your mind and how you've gone from 600 followers to 16,000 and what's interesting about that is also that trajectory, we've seen… there's Matt Skaar, who's gone from maybe 300 followers to three or four thousand, I’m sure exactly his latest numbers, I get scared now because you guys are growing so fast that I can undershoot by a big chunk but he's had a couple of posts going to millions of people and I know that that's really changed the way he's thinking about his own future.
He knows now that he can really impact a lot of lives.
He was a div one soccer player and he had some serious issues and now he's “now I can actually do something about that”.
We were on a call yesterday sort of saying what if you had a program that became the norm, the div one soccer players or people who wanted to go div one that they all did it, that it was a prerequisite kind of understanding, what if you made that program and made it available and it was that he was kind of falling into the thing of “well I probably should offer high-end, all my training and you start to form templates rather than what do I actually want to do, what is my mission?
BRENDAN: Yeah was that Matthew?
KEEGAN: Yeah
BRENDAN: Yeah I met him. His story is great.
The biggest thing I wish I could tell myself a year ago with content is just really patient and protect what fires you up and you have just this inclination towards. When I found ATG and saw the building for ATG for Coaches on the side and learned what you were doing.
I was looking at this like “this is going to change the world”.
I wasn't making content like that at the time, I was trying to get sales and funnels and leads because I was an online fitness coach being mentored by salespeople, not by people trying to actually make solutions in people's lives and this isn't to bash anyone, I learned a lot about… which is a great tool but like, do I want to make content to try to make money and get someone to dm me so I can get a sales call or do I lean towards being more patient and going with what I know will really change the world over time.
I eventually made that shift and what was funny is I stopped trying to blow up and I blew up.
Back when I was trying to catch every trend and play to the tiny psychology of people's attention and all this, I never really made traction and I blamed the algorithm.
I was “this is rigged, it's not meant for me, I’m shadow banned, it's just not fair” and now I look back at that content and I cringe, and where now I’m just proud… the rewarding part for me is wherever the responses come in of “this was made for me. Wow, this is exactly where I’m currently at”, and because I know if 10 people message that then probably hundreds feel that way and then probably thousands are gonna see it that way.
I can't be motivated enough by impact, it just does so much for me when it reaches people.
If you make content to try to get 10,000 views, you're not gonna stay in it very long, you're gonna be cooked and just mentally drained probably.
It's a different form of the rappers man, social equity is real.
The way you feel about it is very similar to how money can make you feel and it's easy to say that now on this side of it where I’m doing well but I know what it's like for years to struggle with social media and your message.
So I’ve just been learning.
Learning a lot from you guys too.
KEEGAN: Yeah maybe we jump to that because I slept on floors in Latin America for a long while, couch surfing and backpacking and living on less than sort of ten thousand dollars a year and I know you had some times as well where you were you were living differently to where you are now, how do you look back on those more challenging times?
BRENDAN: Oh man well, it's kind of like all the cliches that you hear and you think “oh yeah yeah I know it'll make it better in the future, it'll pay off”.
Now I can finally see it but back then I just felt delusionally driven but now I’m just grateful.
Me getting to where I’m at now with ATG and my own growth and building social media and building a community and following and just everything that's changed is only possible because I have failed so many times with so many things and it really… life is the best teacher and the difference between me and a lot of my peers that I grew up in, I have a lot of people that… where I came from and grew up in are in a stuck place and they're struggling and family too and I think “what is the only difference of that?”.
Keeps your mind optimistic for life and it's like you have to be fighting for your ideal, you have to be fighting for the direction you want your life to go in and the further I got in trying stuff and failing, the less I feared failing and so I moved to New York City on my own to try to make my dreams come true in 2018 and then I was a college athlete, a student-athlete and I had financial aid issues.
I ended up homeless within three months and I was sleeping on the train and I was couch surfing for the whole year and I still went to practice and that's when I started content, that's when I started this idea of working on skill sets that can actually help share the story, overcoming the knee injury, of you know overcoming your bad genetics, your low potential.
I was slept on for years and still feel like that.
Nobody would have thought that I'd be where I’m at now.
In terms of athleticism, in terms of confidence, I was too shy to speak up in class and now I put out goofy content that is self-incriminating all the time.
I’m a different person and it only came from getting beat up and just getting up and getting beat up and so yeah I’m super grateful for all that.
That's a whole other podcast and conversation that could go for a long time but…
KEEGAN: I think it's good for people to hear knowing that you were homeless and that you kept the face during that and you just kept learning and building skills and I mean you're still very young but I think that gives a good context.
What is the foundation for? What's coming next for the ATG sprinter?
We know the sprint times and we got a bit of a feel for “okay there's a long-term plan here” but I guess by 25 maybe you're planning on 25, 26 running some really sharp times, what else are you thinking about?
BRENDAN: So I’m definitely clinically delusional with the scale of which I believe things are possible and so even my dreams and goals that I share are really just 10% of what I’m really thinking about and that just comes off arrogant or comes off crazy and it definitely is but for me, it's always ended up playing out.
It's just how long are you willing to wait.
How long are you willing to be wrong?
I don't know, a lot of advice from family and people that are older than me, they're 40 and they're 50 and they're “well this is how life is going to go” and I totally respect from an insight but none of us have lived more than once in this society, I mean you can have your own beliefs about whatever, but in this time and age, this is all of our first times.
So what is the cap of what you believe in yourself and so I don't know why, I just wanted that philosophical rant of context but for me, the goals I have are definitely based on feeling empowered and healthy in your body and there's going to be the niche of fitness and athleticism just because that's one of my passions for sure?
I want to be as credible as I can be on anything I talk about and so sprinting is something I’m taking very seriously.
I want to be the most unathletic guy, does that make sense?
I want to be the least athletic guy to make it to the Olympics.
I think that would be groundbreaking because people ask me all the time, “What are your times? What are your PRs?”
You can actually look up anyone's track times, they're really good in track about documenting that so if you search Brendon Backstrom mile split, you're gonna see how slow I am and you're gonna be like “this guy's crazy” and I definitely am but when you learn stuff like ATG training principles and you feel the magic of it and that you get out of chronic years of pain, that's just like “okay so what if I kept doing it for 10 years, what's possible then?” and it's a big mindset shift and I think that's why the ATG community and ATG for Coaches team are so like-minded in such a beautiful way because it takes a certain kind of openness to life and optimism to even believe it's possible to feel better, to not be in chronic pain, to you know break generational curses or just social paradigms, like things like social heredity, you don't know why you think the things you do but you just convince life is the way it is.
Yeah, I’m just very optimistic and think that training could be big.
I’m going to try to do a lot with content.
I really like filming. I really like writing and for me, I don't try to get hung up on what the tangible manifestation of the skills and passions will be.
I become a really good video editor and content creator that… I’m gonna make some really cool stuff in the future and it's probably gonna help a lot of people because I also enjoy that.
I hope that there's some aspect of the question.
KEEGAN: When I left professional rugby league, I'd worked with a team that became the world champion team, I was working with the highest profile athlete, there were there was nothing more that could be done in the sport that I was in.
it couldn't get any better than that 2013 season I was a part of but when I left that I gave strength training workshops and I said “the way the world strength trains needs to change”.
The way that we're doing things at the moment, if you go into an average gym, if you look at the strength of the average human, it's not okay, like it's not okay.
We can't accept the way things are right now.
We know a lot more than this. We can do a lot better than this and it has to change and I believe that we can change this was the message that I was telling at these seminars and one way or another I felt as though I was going to be part of the world changing the way the world does strength training.
It's one of the key things that I had in my mind in 2014, 2015, 2016, 2000… and it wasn't really happening and it was I was working hard and I was you know helping individual gym owners and they were becoming the best gym in town or a good gym.
But now it's happened, now it's literally happened and it was Ben but I’m his cheerleader and I support him and I’ve added a squeeze of lime as you would say like “I’m there with that” and it's happened, the way the world trains has now changed.
You go into any gym in the world and you're going to find at least one or two people who are doing these movements now.
They're doing tip raises, they're doing split squats said sure there's further it can go and it can be implemented better and it's not perfect and we've got a long way to go, and the equipment's changing and it's going to take time but it's literally what seemed ridiculous less than 10 years ago by 2024 you think of where this is going to be, 10 years later, it's a real massive significant change so it then becomes…
If I was aiming too low with that, if I was thinking too small what else if another 10 years is going to pass?
If I’m going to have the blessing of another 10 years, what should I aim for in these next 10 years?
Seeing Ben talking about the education system and building a school that fires me up.
We're building a resort or a village in Vanuatu, a self-sustaining village that people can go to train and go to reform their life and make a fresh start that has food production and it's just pristine in nature, 10 minutes across the water from an international airport.
Imagine you take a flight, you get off and you arrive to a place where the high standards of ATG and Uncommon Success are the norm and you live in that environment for a month.
You have these rehabilitation clinics for people who've lost their way.
What about people who are kind of doing okay but just feel they want to be like that?
That jocko willing call, that Ben Patrick or that Joe Rogan or is there a process that humans can go through where they become successful entrepreneurial… get the body, build that mindset, I believe, from my time in professional sport, I believe it's possible.
I’ve seen average guys who grew up in pretty shitty environments who didn't do well at school, who are naturally kind of lazy, just be exceptional and just hold themselves to a really high standard and then bring other younger players along to that standard and I’ve seen that that environment can be created for people to thrive in but where does it exist outside of pro sport?
How do you get yourself into that environment?
ATG for coaches is probably you know one of the best things that you can do but my dream is that there's a place in every city where when someone decides “hey it's time for me to level up, I want to be part of something bigger and better” that there are other people that they can go and spend time with who've made that decision who are either just starting peers or they're a little bit further along in the process and I think it's happening for ATG for coaches and I wanted to be available for everybody with… that's kind of the vision with the Uncommon Success.
For those who choose success and those who choose that they know they want to do the work, that's a place where you could have gone and maybe you could have slept on the floor in one of the gyms of those places and had someone say “yeah stick with it brother because you know I’ve been there as well and this is where we're headed” and that's kind of where I see it going and I was really excited to have this conversation today because I didn't know you very well, I know you better for the last hour and a bit but there's are a lot of people out there that are on this path that want to be more like where you are right now and I think this content makes it a little bit more accessible “yeah there's something I can do here, there are things that I see in this story that I’m seeing myself. I’m just one year behind or I’m just two years behind or I’m at the same point and I know that, okay we're going to keep going.”
BRENDAN: Everything you just said is amazing and that's exactly the place I’m coming from when I get all excited and just start spewing out my ideas and optimism because it's hard to deliver years of this equation kind of forming and you're like “I just believe in hard work and doing the right things” but it's not clicking and it all clicks and you realize it's it all counts and so now how do I fit that into an hour podcast?
What's the best way to distill all the emotions and opportunities?
I feel into a clear message. I’m going to get better at it, this is still early for me.
It's fresh for me to try to share my story. No one wanted to hear my story for years and so the fact I can even be on the podcast now, I promise, your story matters, you specifically Keegan, but also the viewers and anyone that is in the network community.
I am a true example of no different than anyone else and I agree with you, I think one of the best things we can do is make it a less lonely journey in self-improvement because tons of people want to work on themselves, it's just sort of a trivial thing because I feel the natural route for people in maybe American society, whether we realize or not, is to get by.
And just to get by whether it's financially or even finding the balance of work life, what makes you happy or not.
By the age of 18, you give up on the whole idea of “I’m going to be an astronaut, firefighter, live my dream because now you have to do taxes and you get the feelings of responsibility which of course is a real thing but honestly, I think the only reason I take the chances I have is because I came up with a lot less and so I really do appreciate things more and that's just honest self-awareness.
So when I had even sprinkles of advice or mentorship it was scripture to me and I would risk my whole life for it and it's because I realized just getting by is already so hard.
It is really hard and painful to just make rent or to just have a decent job and there's nothing wrong with that but there's no easy route in life, it's going to be hard no matter what.
So why would I not freaking go for it?
That is the one thing I wish I felt, even more, a couple of years ago was just like you are undershooting in life, you are selling yourself short for whatever you think is crazy, you're selling yourself short and that's okay you're going to realize that as you accomplish the goals, you’re going to make bigger ones but there's just so much to be changed in the infrastructure supporting them and I think that's worse for the big solutions, like curing disease, preventing it before it even happens.
The education system and how we make happier, healthier people.
How do we prevent atrocities in the world?
I don't think it happens in debates of short solutions.
I think it comes with cultivating wholesome people that love their life and that starts with having a dream, having a healthy body, or just something you're passionate about that you can pursue every day.
I feel that now but I know what it's like to be like “wow I’m never gonna be an athlete because I’m injured” or I grew up extremely poor not having food.
How do you break that? How do you break the mindset of scarcity when you come up with that?
It's so bold of you to think you can change your whole trajectory of life.
But meeting people like you, meeting an ecosystem that's just in that direction, it's so hard to stop the momentum.
You can't stay neutral on a moving train.
So if we're all pushing to make the change and you're on board, you're going to be in a good spot so like you said that resort, that kind of environment to have people make it just as normal as all the other… like you said we have rehabilitation for people that are completely down and out struggling.
Well, why are we not pushing to have people feel completely empowered and grateful.
I think the impact just multiplies tenfold that way.
So man I’m so passionate about it that I just start freaking going about it.
KEEGAN: I think this is us. This is the truth that we've got to… I mean the conversations that I get to have with Ben from time to time, he always expands my vision as well now like some of the things that he said to me over the last sort of 12 months, they just rattle around in my head for like days of like “okay like he's going there, where am I going?”
It just makes me think about leveling up and where am I when I come along with this and it's challenging for sure to be sitting alongside Ben Patrick for the last four years and see him do what he's done and obviously try and contribute wherever I can but like he's going so fast, so high and he's gone to all sorts of connections and places that we couldn't even have dreamed of when we first started talking 2018 and but I can say that like as much as it's challenging to be around that people on that trajectory and those things like “what's the alternative” like it is so fun and I know that I can because I’m listening to him and doing that and I’m thinking like well like “I wonder if I can do anything even close to what he's thinking about doing” then when I speak to someone who's got kind of low expectations for themselves, it's so easy for me to help them sort of see a little bit brighter future than what they can see right now and I just see people, I see them light up and then I see them taking action towards it, I seem connected with other people who can help them on the path and there's nothing better for me than doing this.
So teaching the… having the ATG system become clear and then encouraging and inspiring, supporting coaches okay “what's your part in this going to be?” like if you've got access to this the same as everybody else, apply it as best you can in the area that you feel most excited about in your local community or your specialized niche or
your age group or your demographic.
Everybody's got a job to play in the ATG for Coaches community but every human, I think, if we all just thought about it this way of like we're all unique, we've all got something that we can deliver that no one else can deliver and it's like how much can we level up in every human.
If we just play it like a computer game, going through the levels, I think life will get better.
We will deal with some of those bigger challenges that you're talking about.
BRENDAN: Yeah and it's like if you want to change your life, you don't have to get it all right, you don't have to change everything.
It could really only take one thing, one aspect for a huge shift to occur and it breaks through.
Like me, I’m an athlete and I was injured and fragile and I wanted to learn more and I found ATG and ATG for Coaches which was just like a cool training philosophy.
It was a new concept, it was in my training part of my life that had nothing to do with relationships with my day-to-day life, with my everything and now this one specific niche of my life has changed everything and so find that thing and really just always be mindful of the character you're trying to develop and the person you want to become and it might take years, it might take months, I don't know, but as you get closer with whatever that thing is, your whole life could change and you just start to view it as such an open-ended question of life versus this hard stagnant, I have it all figured out and if you think life is crappy that's a tough mindset to carry every day.
It's hard to change that but now I realized I have no clue what happened in five years like you said things are growing so fast and there's so much changing in the fitness landscape.
It's spilling over to the education space and then what if it goes to other sectors and it's like, I’m just glad to be on board, this is where… the community of individuals is sometimes gonna be, that's gonna be the heartbeat and direction of the message because each of us individually like you said, you're around Ben all the time just like “man this brings out a lot of like questions for me, it's hard to deal with.
Even in the good optimistic times, it can be a little bit of anxiety but the good news is we're adaptive creatures and so if you're just in somewhere that you believe in, you're contributing in some aspect, you're gonna be fine.
I’ve never slept at night with so much peace in my life because I just have good friends, and good colleagues, and I’m working on stuff.
I really try to keep life simple and how I view it and that can protect you from the chaos going on every week and on the news or whatever might bog us down in the current situation.
Man, there's so much to learn and so anyone that watches this is in ATG for Coaches or they find the video, or we shared it so they're already on the right track.
It takes a certain kind of person to be receptive to a podcast like this and especially to be an hour and 40 minutes into it, you're going to be all right whoever that person is.
KEEGAN: Yeah I think we gave a lot there today Brendan.
If people want to connect with you, what's the best way for them to see more from you?
BRENDAN: Yeah ATGSprinter on Instagram. I’m on all the platforms and Tiktok and
Youtube and stuff but I’m most accessible on Instagram.
I dm everybody back, I am not big time so I love conversations with people and trying to help so just reach out anytime, and we can talk.
KEEGAN: Love it man and I’m grateful to have this conversation with you and the journey that you've been on sharing a little bit of that with us today and look forward to that conversation and hopefully getting some training together and maybe an in-person podcast later this year would be a lot of fun.
BRENDAN: Let's shoot for it, you said it, and now it's on the record, I’m gonna make sure it happens for sure, that's awesome.
KEEGAN: All right we're going to speak soon, appreciate you.
BRENDAN: Thank you, Keegan, I appreciate it.
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